trouble with bleeding front brakes, no pressure?

[steelhorseangel]

hi wingers

the old project bike is nearing completion. she's had a face
lift and lots of new parts. the calipers have been overhauled
new pads and new brake fluid. the original stuff was like
the strongest coffee colour. all the fluid is clear now.
they're now back on the bike. they were primed and all
worked on the bench.

i've read the manual about bleeding process 'combined brakes' and
started the bleed process with the front right. i've bought
the usual stainless steel bleed nips and lot of the lovely
guys on here, advise fit speed bleeders.

has anyone heard of 'stahlbus' brake bleeder valves?
do a search on google!..
these are a new german invention. better than the original
speed bleeders. they're made in two halves, the bottom half stays in the caliper
threads and you don't need to move it again.
the top half is moveable and this is what you use to bleed the system.
the reason why i like it, is that repetition of the 'open and closing'
the threads cause wear on them and eventually they will fail,
rendering the caliper useless.

some speed bleeders fail under heat, the 'stahlbus' don't fail.

they're not cheap, they're used in the world of racing and therefore
a great safety buy.


the 'bleeding problem, so to speak.

i've drained the front master cylinder out and cleaned the port.
i've undone the brake line banjo bolt and tested the
compression in the mc. on placing my thumb on the hole
and pressing the lever, there is so much pressure it
forces my thumb off the hole.

the previous owner, has installed new stainless steel brake lines
and when bought the bike, the front brake was very strong.

the brakes pads were rusty and thin. the brake fluid
had perished, by the dark brown color.

the calipers were cleaned and then painted with hi heat, two pack
caliper paint and reinstalled a week later.

i've bled brakes before, but not combined brakes.
the front brake is none existant. i've tried to reverse bleed
it and i can't get any bubbles by inserting the fluid with a large
syringe and tube.

i've then tried with the tube in a jar and had a friend do 'open and close'
for a long period and I could obtain any front brake pressure?

the back brake is working fine. the pedal is strong.

i then tried the right caliper and nothing from that one either.

q) should i invest in speed bleeders?

q2) is a vacuum pump like mityvac or similar better
than a 'no return value' in a bottle?
someone advised me that the vacuum pump
create additional air bubbles?

i've bled brakes many times before, but the front ones,
have got me very confused? they wont bleed.

i've tapped the lines, especially at the top intersection,
searching for trapped air bubbles.

last night i connected a bottle and tube to the front
right caliper and then a 1/4 turn open the nipple.
then tied the brake lever in the pulled position.

result this morning = nothing.

i've searched the forum and a lot of wingers
have similar problems.

i can't ride my bike like it's, how strange this is.
i've never known such a predicament and i
just don't know what it's.

i've not tried a vacuum pump bleeder,
recommended?

and/or

speed bleeders?


many thanks for your help wingers.

angel signing off,
ran out of brake fluid.
fingers dropping off with 'open and close'
bike doesn't want to me bled?

[Frank]

When you had the handle tied down you were shutting off the system. All that did was let any air in the M/C come to the top. When you squeeze the handle the piston takes the small amount of fluid that is in front of the piston and forces it into the line, as long as you hold the handle down the fluid can't go up or down the line. Now if you remove the M/C cap, open the bleeder fluid should eventually start flowing out just from gravity (it takes awhile to get going since you don't have much pressure). A mistake I have seen often is that the caliper pistons are put in backwards which creates an area too great for the fluid to push the piston.

[steelhorseangel]

hi frank

many thanks for your reply.

the calipers were serviced by a
friend. could he of put the pistons
in the wrong way round?

he specialized in brakes.

the pistons were put in with
the flats inside and the hollows
showing!

can you send me a photo
of how they should be please?

he did all three, the rear brake is
very strong.

when you attached the tube into
a filled container. the brake nipple
is unscrewed 1/4 turn.
you pull the lever in a few times
then lock it off. repeat and it does
nothing?

he might've put the pistons
in wrong?

many thanks!

angel

[Keener]

I put these on our 'Wing a couple of years ago. Sure makes it easier to bleed the system (according to my mechanic!).

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

[Frank]

If he put the flats in to the caliper then they are right. You know that only the left front caliper works with the hand brake, right? The right front and rear are on the foot brake. The only thing I can suggest at this point is to do as I said. Hook a hose to the bleeder and open it (you may need to open it more), remove the M/C cap and make sure that the reservoir is full and go watch tv, if you come back and the reservoir is empty then you know fluid is flowing, then just start over with the filling and pumping. You have to remember that you are only moving just a very small amount of fluid with each pump so you may have to pump it 100 times to flush the system then let it sit over night and pump it again. Really vigorous pumping will just whip up any air in the system so pump slowly, tap the lines from time to time to make any bubbles in the system release. Patience and persistence my friend

[steelhorseangel]

many thanks wingers!

so the left caliper works with the hand
brake.

the right caliper and rear work
together, unified, linked!

in the manual it advises
that you bleed the right caliper
first, then the rear.
my back brake is strong and perfect.

are the two front calipers linked
together?

confused definitely!

many thanks!

Angel

[Frank]

No. Left front, hand brake. Right front and rear, foot brake

[steelhorseangel]

hi frank!

thanks again.

i just assumed that on operating
the front brake it links to the rear brake.

so the right hand brake operates the
left brake!

using your info, i connect ye olde glass container
and vintage tube and asked a good friend
to open and close the lever a few times
and then hold in. i watched
the big bubbles rise and it
brought a very big smile to
my face! sometimes the oldest
methods are better than gizmos.
in the uk, there is a motorcycle
company called 'demon tweaks'.
i looked for vacuum brake bleeding
pumps and couldn't find any.
what i did find was brake bleed
bottles with a one way valve and
a tube for £80 brit pounds.
my coffee jar and tube cost nothing.

you're correct in advising patience
oh guru mechanic. a bit like bread
making. :-)mmm

i couldn't get all the bubbles out
at one time. a bit each day?
let nature and related gravity help.

q) I've a riding technique question
based upon using the brakes.
on most classic bikes. you've separate
brakes, not linked.
if i needed to do slow riding. i
would use the rear brake, throttle
and slip the clutch.

how do you use unified/linked
brakes to ride slow please?
I've never ridden a wing before.
I've been riding 20 years, police
trained on bikes!

many thanks for pointing me in
the right direction!

Regards

Angel :-) yippee, nearly there! x[/u]

---

hi keaner!

i will order some of the German
ones i mentioned in my original
posting. they're totally different
to the original speed bleeds.
do a search on the name above.
i was very impressed with the newer
speed bleeds.

thanks again buddy!

Angel

I put these on our 'Wing a couple of years ago. Sure makes it easier to bleed the system (according to my mechanic!).

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

[Frank]

I'm not sure that there is a right or wrong way to use them. If I just wanna slow down a bit, like heading into a curve, I'll use just the front brake. If I'm coming to a stop I use both then release the foot and hold with the hand. The foot brake sends 70% of the fluid to the front when you apply it, since you want your stopping power to be in the front, all the rear brake is for is to keep the rear wheel behind you during heavy braking. It has very little stopping power.

[bs175dths]

There is rhyme and reason to the linking of the right, front brake to the left, rear brake…..
Prior to Honda linking brakes, we all grew up with two separate braking systems on bikes, front and rear.
Front disc was an improvement over the drum, the rear was always drum.
As the bikes became faster and faster, dual front discs and rear discs stated to show up.

There was a myth/fear, if an operator applied only the front brakes, he/she would do a rear wheel wheelie and be thrown over the handle bars.

Honda, in their infinite wisdom (to keep selling more and more bikes) tried to eliminate this (fear) by joining (or ‘linking’) the rear brake to the front.
Since the rear disc is on the left side of the bike, it only seemed logical to link the opposite side of the front of the bike. (allowing the bike to panic brake in a straight line???)

So when bleeding the brakes, there are two systems, left front is one system, and the right front joined with the left rear, is the other system.

General rule of thumb is to bleed the brake which is farthest from the master.
In the case of the right hand lever, it is a no brainer since it operates only the left front caliper.
In the case of the brake pedal, the right front caliper needs to be bled first and then the rear (left).

Tried and true, tube-in-a-bottle can be used on these bikes. I can stretch far enough to bleed the systems myself.
I have considered speed bleeders for my four-wheeled modes of transportations, but I just ask for an assistant. (my son is now 16, so he will do.)

The other items of interest are the following:
If rebuilding the master (front or rear brake, or the clutch), don’t forget to prime the pump or you will be wasting your time.
If rebuilding a caliper, standard bleeding practices apply, just remember, the caliper needs to fill with fluid, so be patient.
If the system stills feels mushy, bleeding at the banjo bolt may assist in getting the air out of the system.
Also remember, air moves up, so leaving the system to allow any air to move to its highest point may facilitate getting the air out.
If fluid is spilled, it is water soluble, so douse the area with water.

BTW – I like to pump the system and hold the lever or pedal down on the third pump, slowly open the bleeder valve at the caliper, then close it, THEN release the lever or the pedal.
ALSO, I use the proper sized box wrench (or a line wrench will do – which is a box wrench with one side missing so it can be threaded over a brake line) PLEASE DO NOT USE AN OPEN ENDED WRENCH AS THESE WILL ROUND THE BLEEDER!

Good Luck with your brake bleeding and we look forward to hearing of your road travels…….

[steelhorseangel]

hi frank, bs and other wingers!

many thanks for really helpful
advice, being a rookie wing assembler
I've great respect for your cummulative
knowledge.

we're getting there now, just
need to do an engine swop.
finding the 'hens teeth, bargain of the
year the nos engine, carbs
and starter was so fortunate.
i was just in the right place,
at the right time.

i love learning how to make
all the parts work correctly.
the po's just neglected the wing.

patience, perseverance, paid off
with the brakes.

many thanks everyone!

regards

Angel

[steelhorseangel]

hi ya'all

I've now got brakes, yippee!

The front right and rear calipers
were easier than the front brake
left caliper. I've tried for quite
some time. I was using the
tube in a jam jar method.

I've tried a few things for the left caliper
front brake and did a MC clean out and
a reverse bleed. this sorted it.
The hand brake is still spongy though.
Is this normal? I expected a good
solid brake?

Many thanks for helping me
everyone!

Regards

Angel

[bs175dths]

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU NOW HAVE STOP!

next comes 'GO' with your killer deal of a find.

Since you now have brakes, have you tried bleeding the hand lever at the banjo bolt? There may be some air trapped up there. (funny how an air bubble may want to travel to its highest point in a liquid)

If you have already tried, let the system sit for a bit. This will let the system(s) sort out whatever air may still be in the system, then you can bleed it one last time.

Good Luck and thanks for the updates.

-Ride On

[steelhorseangel]

hi bs!

the brakes have been a challenge.

I've found a garage in the uk
run by a dedicated goldwing
restorer. i found bill on
ebay. I've bought a few parts
from him, all good no rust.

i asked him his background, he
advised me 'I've been repairing
goldwings since 1984!'
To swop your engine carbs,
balance them and tune the
bike £300 brit pounds.
I've neck and back injuries
due to being rear ended by a
white van man. i was laid up
for over two years and just read
bike mags. seeing the lads on their
bikes, made me get better, but
not fully. I've draw the line about
swopping engines. one for xena.

the new assy is now wrapped in
plastic, tied down and covered
in bubble wrap and duct tape.

we removed the original carbs
and this will save on labour.
the bike is naked, looks like an
1100 and i left the main fairing
for checking the warning lights etc.
oil, neutral, temp etc.
i was on the ball, the mechanic
didn't asked me to do this.

So we will end up with a 29
year old bike, with zero miles!
no one will believe me!

i will now leave the brakes
as the bike is going in
for the assembly swop!
looking foward to hearing it run!

I've never ridden a wing before.
I met a chap in 70's at a bike
show. he was very proud of his
asp. he then showed me his memory
stick and how he listens to mp3's.
Told me he was only 5' 5" and
he loved his wing!

i will check the banjo bolt
air lock, when the wing flies
home!

thanks again bs!

Angel :-)