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Rear brake bleeding problem
1986 Aspencade. I have rebuilt both the front and rear calipers, new pads, cleaned the grooves, polished the pistons, lubed the rods (twice now). I have also rebuilt the rear master cylinder with new seals (twice). Drained all the old fluid. I'm not a newbie to working on bikes but this unified system is new to me. I can not for the life of me get my brakes to pump up. I have been a damn week now trying. I've drained, clamped, sucked, blown until I'll so frustrated I could scream! I don't show any leaks and I can only get a very small amount of movement of fluid. I used a new vacuum pump today and I was able to suck a large amount of air out of the system but there is no end to it. I thought I might be sucking air around the bleeder valve so I wrapped teflon tape around them to make a seal, still sucking air and no pedal. I am left with only two conclusions, one I'm sucking air around the piston seals or my master cylinder is somehow defective? If the seals were leaking then I should see fluid? I just don't see what could be wrong with the M/C that would keep it from pumping? I'm stumped, what am I over looking?
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
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#1 08-16-2012, 10:59 PM,
I am going to guess that your bike has floorboards and if it does have floorboards then the pedal travel is being limited by the floorboard preventing you from bleeding the brakes properly. Remove the brake pedal and place it higher on the splines or remove the floorboard then try bleeding again and you should be OK, then reposition the brake pedal back to the original spot once all the air is removed from the system by pumping the pedal up and down and letting the fluid/air out while holding the pedal down. If that doesn't do the trick then take the bike to a shop that has a pressure bleeder and that should take care of the problem.
Ed (Vic) Belanger - 1954-2015
Founder of gl1200goldwings.com

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#2 08-17-2012, 01:38 AM,
I am presuming you are bleeding the right front caliper first, then the rear caliper.?
The only stupid questions are the one's that are not asked.

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#3 08-17-2012, 05:25 AM,
No floor boards and I have a good amount of travel to the pedal 3"-4". I used a vacuum bleeder on it last night and still had no luck. Would the anti-lock system have any effect?
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
Reply
#4 08-17-2012, 07:28 AM,
Oh and yes right front first. I'm trying to work with just a Haynes and a Clymer manual. The Haynes mentions something about the anti-lock but has no troubleshooting tips or symptoms of failure?
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
Reply
#5 08-17-2012, 07:35 AM,
Do you know how to bleed the master cylinder alone? Fill the reservoir, remove the banjo bolt on the line on the master cylinder, then place your finger flat over the banjo bolt hole using your finger to act as a one way valve that only permits air and fluid out of the master, but, doesn't let air in. Pump the brake pedal up and down without releasing your finger and you will feel the air and fluid escaping. Once you get a solid stream of fluid and no air the master is then properly bled and you can reinstall the banjo bolt, fitting and washers and tighten the bolt then go on to bleed the front then rear caliper and you should have a solid brake pedal, if not, then take it to a shop that specializes in brake repair to determine if the master cylinder or other components has issues, such as damaged seals, malfunctioning bleeders or leaking brake hose or a damaged copper gasket at the banjo fitting. Most likely you just have air in the system and can't get it out, but, you don't want to mess with brakes if you are not certain how to fix them.
Ed (Vic) Belanger - 1954-2015
Founder of gl1200goldwings.com

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#6 08-17-2012, 08:19 AM,
There is no banjo bolt on the rear master cylinder? Interesting that a forum dedicated to Goldwings would suggest that I take it to a mechanic to have trouble shot? I have forgotten more about motorcycles than most of these MIT 18 year old kids know. If I need a special tool I'll fabricate or buy it, if I need to learn how to do something I will. Not too many things on bikes are beyond my capabilities or resources. Thank you for the suggestions anyway. I'll push on till I find the source of the problem
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
Reply
#7 08-17-2012, 08:36 AM,
The reason it was suggested, is that your having problems doing the job and that it is a safety issue.

Over the past 27 years of working on 1200,s I have had no problems bleeding brakes both front or the unified system.

Obviously there is a problem your overlooking, most likely the master cylinder.

On my original 85 Aspy with over 260,000k none of the master cylinders have ever given me problems, possibly because I change the fluid out every other year.
The only stupid questions are the one's that are not asked.

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#8 08-17-2012, 11:04 AM,
I am not aware of any anti-lock system at all on these bikes. ABS was not offered as an option on any Goldwing until the 1800 models.
Turtle
86 Interstate, ex  police bike
85 LTD, parting out

[Image: VisitedStatesMap.jpg]
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#9 08-17-2012, 12:41 PM,
Frank Wrote:There is no banjo bolt on the rear master cylinder? Interesting that a forum dedicated to Goldwings would suggest that I take it to a mechanic to have trouble shot? I have forgotten more about motorcycles than most of these MIT 18 year old kids know. If I need a special tool I'll fabricate or buy it, if I need to learn how to do something I will. Not too many things on bikes are beyond my capabilities or resources. Thank you for the suggestions anyway. I'll push on till I find the source of the problem

Brakes are quite simple in operation, but, they must be repaired accurately for reliable and safe performance and this is why I stressed taking it to a shop that knows what they are doing. If you understand mechanics and brakes then you'll easily understand what I suggested you do at the fitting on the master cylinder regardless of wether it is a banjo fitting or a compression fitting. If I had your bike here I could diagnose it and repair it properly, but, seems to me that you know much more than we could ever know so perhaps you don't need our help. We are here to help folks that truly need our help and most show that they appreciate our help. Over the years I have put some really, really sharp technicians off this site simply because they had a bad attitude, whereas instead they should have shown gratitude to the site's members. On this site I would much rather have a small group of decent people with good solid general knowledge than a large group of smartass know it alls that make life horrible for many. Normally I don't speak out like this but I have just suffered a tremendous loss and I am in no mood to play games with a know it all. Play nice or leave, the choice is yours. Stay and drop the attitude and you will receive tremendous help here, but, remember, we can't see your bike nor what you have done to it so please give us a little common courtesy when we are performing online diagnosing for you and your problems.
Ed (Vic) Belanger - 1954-2015
Founder of gl1200goldwings.com

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#10 08-17-2012, 03:11 PM,
Amen, Vic.
I get far more advice and support from this site than I could possibly return. If I even think it's over my abilities or comfort level,,,to the shop it goes. It's not an EGO things, it's a common sense thing. Hell, the only thing I'm an expert on is leaving the kick stand down. :d

Thanks Vic, Tricky...You can lead a genius to water, But you can make him think.
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#11 08-17-2012, 04:18 PM,
Site Admin, first let me say I am truly sorry to hear about your loss, I'm sure that is a great burden upon you at this time.

I tend to not have a good filter between my brain and my mouth so if I think it I say it. I didn't mean to come across as unappreciative but it just struck me as odd that a forum member would suggest that I take it to a dealer since the combined knowledge of a forum should be greater than any mechanic at a dealership. I have been the whole dealership motorcycle mechanic route and when it comes to older bikes they, for the most part, know less than I. Spent a whole lot of money with very poor results. It was at that time I took it upon myself to teach myself how to work on bikes.

I'm sure that my frustration level is a little high (ok a lot high) after spending the last two weeks, reading manuals, spending hours with the search functions on this and other sites and nothing I try is giving results. To ask if there was something I was missing in all of this was not an easy thing for me to do, lead me to the water, I know how to drink it thing.

I bought this bike after it had been totaled, the reason it got totaled was because the brakes went out. Initially I was able to just bleed them out and they functioned but once they heated up they would seize. Being the type that I am I decided that a complete rebuild would be the only way to go since the return hole on the M/c's was obviously plugged and old brake fluid and corrosion would be rampant in the calipers. I meticulously cleaned each and every part, nook and cranny and used my manuals and pictures to make sure everything was put back in the proper order and as I said I even went back and double checked my work after the first attempts failed. When no new information was brought back from the forum about a possible solution I was left to assume that I was on my own.

I have the problem now under control. I removed the M/C from my 85, took my new parts back out of the 86 and installed them into the 85, bled out the M/C, bled the banjos, bled the bleeders and now I am getting some pedal. It still isn't where it needs to be but after all of that I decided to let whatever air is left in the system to accumulate and I'll bleed them again to make sure I have it fully purged.

Again I want to apologize if I came across a bit gruff. Believe it or not I am a moderater on one bike forum and a heavy contributor to another. I have picture build threads that have helped many, many people and I freely share any knowledge that I have learned the hard way with others so that they have an easy way. I have even shared some of my two Goldwing projects on this site.
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.gl1200goldwings.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9469">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9469</a><!-- l -->

I thought about documenting some of my detail work here but I figured everything has already been covered and being new to the Wing there would be little I could contribute. Again, I'm not a bad guy just having a bad day I guess. Frank
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
Reply
#12 08-17-2012, 07:50 PM,
If as you say you stripped the calipers replaced parts and cleaned them, lubed the slide bolts so that you can feel slight movement when gripping the calipers, there is only one part left and that is the master cylinder. Seems like you have it under partial control.

Another thing that can feel like air in the system is old and weak brake lines, I dont remember if you mentioned that you changed them, they are 27 years old, the inner lining can break down and allow the line to bulge under pressure.
Changing to stainless lines can solve that problem.

if you wish you can go to <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.classic-cycle.ca/">http://www.classic-cycle.ca/</a><!-- m --> this place supplied quality lines for the lowest price I could find.
The only stupid questions are the one's that are not asked.

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#13 08-18-2012, 05:27 AM,
That thought has for sure crossed my mind. There is a lot of line in that rear system, a few mm along the total length could account for a lot of fluid. I just love this bike so I'm sure that I'll be putting that on my ta do list anyway. I traced, followed and touched all along the lines searching for an obvious defect but mere stretching is impossible to see.

I had just totally hit the wall on this thing, it just didn't seem like anything I tried worked. My bag-o-tricks was empty. Add to that the fact I had worked for days, removed and installed, was getting brake fluid everywhere, knocked one of my bleeding jars over and had enough absorbent on the floor that my bike looks like it is sitting in a litter box and I was ready just push it out the door.

The only other time I recall being so stumped on something like this was back in the 80's when I was working on my 69 Camero, I could not for the life of me get the master cylinder to operate correctly after a rebuild. Come to find out I had to re-set the check valve, in order to do that you had to slam the pedal down as hard as you could with your foot forcing the valve back into position. That is what brought me to this point of asking "is there something I'm missing?" I thought by chance there might be some little tech tip or little known fix to re-set this master cylinder that I just hadn't been able to find. I wish I could see a cut away of that rear master cylinder so I could see the lower workings, I don't like things I can't take apart. I figure if they put them together then I should be able to take them apart fix, repair or replace.

I felt ok about having it under control yesterday when I left. I will give the fluid a chance to settle down in the system since all the pumping and fluid movement can cause it to trap tiny air bubbles in the system breaking them down to almost microscopic levels. Thanks for the link, I'll check them out, I'm always on the look out for new sources for parts for old bikes.

I'll be glad to get this out of the way so I can move back to sussing out the radio intercom system, the PO was kind enough to do some re-wiring in that area
1986 SEi Limited Edition. 1985 Aspencade
If it's not broke, I can fix that!
Reply
#14 08-18-2012, 06:57 AM,
Frank Wrote:The only other time I recall being so stumped on something like this was back in the 80's when I was working on my 69 Camero, I could not for the life of me get the master cylinder to operate correctly after a rebuild. Come to find out I had to re-set the check valve, in order to do that you had to slam the pedal down as hard as you could with your foot forcing the valve back into position.

That check valve you mentioned is a proportioning valve assembly that contained a pressure/balance safety valve that would close the half of the system with the least amount of pressure in order that you would still have the other half of the tandem braking system to get the car stopped if a part of the hydraulic system failed. It was very common for back yard mechanics to not understand how this valve worked and until they were instructed on how to properly bleed the hydraulics it was impossible for them to obtain a high and solid brake pedal. With your bike it is crucial that you make certain that the master cylinder contains no air, not easy on that rear master cylinder, but, it needs to be done, unconditionally to get a good pedal. Once the master is absolutely free of air then you can clear the front system then the rear system of all air. Sometimes beating on the master, lines and calipers with a plastic hammer can help raise trapped air to the bleeders because friction can keep air bubbles down low and the hammer striking dislodges and moves the sticking air bubbles. Most often when I have come across a low brake pedal the problem has been sticking caliper slides or sticking pistons which do not permit full fluid flow in the system preventing the air from travelling to the bleeders. A couple of times I have even had to lift one end of the bike to bleed that part of the system then raise the opposite end of the bike to get the system bled properly. Hopefully some of the info gleaned in this thread will help you end up with good solid brakes
Ed (Vic) Belanger - 1954-2015
Founder of gl1200goldwings.com

Reply
#15 08-18-2012, 09:26 AM,


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